They're certainly related, though I think they bring two different angles to the question of war.
I read Wang Changling here as recognising the pity of war: he knows that it's a brutal and scary thing to do battle on dark plains. But he doesn't question the fundamental rightness of war. The Chanyu is a fearsome foe who has to be faced, and the bravery of the "lords" who left their sweet sex-nooks to fight the hard fight is to be celebrated.
When Du Fu wrote his 马萧萧 poem, his point was rather different. These were pointless wars which exhausted the land. Du Fu was telling the emperor that his wars were wrong - and maybe even developing the idea into something grander, a true antiwar sentiment.
I find Tang war poetry really interesting, because it is working in a very different literary context to European war poetry. Every European poet has to deal with the legacy of Homer, who starts with the glory of war. You stake out a position relative to Homer - glorifying along with him, or accepting the necessity of war, or anti-war (and all the shades in between).
But Chinese poets didn't have that. They begin from the pity of war, and their thoughts go in two directions: either, war is piteous but also important and great; or war is piteous and terrible (a proto-antiwar position, like Du Fu's).
(Obviously all of this is very simplistic - I'm working it out as I go along. But this is how I think about it at the moment!)
This is insightful and delightful, thank you. I agree that Du Fu (who is in my view unfairly characterised as a rather boring poet just because he happened to coexist with Li Bai) is making a similar point from a different perspective: he is focusing on the cost of war and Wang Changling is taking that as read.
My spoken Chinese sucks; you want a native speaker for that. Are you thinking Mandarin or Canto? I’d go with Canto for the closer rhymes but there’s this austere beauty to Mandarin versions of classical poems that is also very appealing.
I'm fighting shy of doing recordings myself at the moment. My spoken Chinese is not really good enough that I'd make a decent version. This poem is not particularly well-known, so I can't find a video of it online, but when I do better-known poems I'll make sure to link to videos each time so you can get a feel for the sound.
车辚辚，马萧萧. A continuation of that thread I think
They're certainly related, though I think they bring two different angles to the question of war.
I read Wang Changling here as recognising the pity of war: he knows that it's a brutal and scary thing to do battle on dark plains. But he doesn't question the fundamental rightness of war. The Chanyu is a fearsome foe who has to be faced, and the bravery of the "lords" who left their sweet sex-nooks to fight the hard fight is to be celebrated.
When Du Fu wrote his 马萧萧 poem, his point was rather different. These were pointless wars which exhausted the land. Du Fu was telling the emperor that his wars were wrong - and maybe even developing the idea into something grander, a true antiwar sentiment.
I find Tang war poetry really interesting, because it is working in a very different literary context to European war poetry. Every European poet has to deal with the legacy of Homer, who starts with the glory of war. You stake out a position relative to Homer - glorifying along with him, or accepting the necessity of war, or anti-war (and all the shades in between).
But Chinese poets didn't have that. They begin from the pity of war, and their thoughts go in two directions: either, war is piteous but also important and great; or war is piteous and terrible (a proto-antiwar position, like Du Fu's).
(Obviously all of this is very simplistic - I'm working it out as I go along. But this is how I think about it at the moment!)
This is insightful and delightful, thank you. I agree that Du Fu (who is in my view unfairly characterised as a rather boring poet just because he happened to coexist with Li Bai) is making a similar point from a different perspective: he is focusing on the cost of war and Wang Changling is taking that as read.
I like your reading. I wonder if you could also read the poem in Chinese so we can hear the original rhythm?
My spoken Chinese sucks; you want a native speaker for that. Are you thinking Mandarin or Canto? I’d go with Canto for the closer rhymes but there’s this austere beauty to Mandarin versions of classical poems that is also very appealing.
I'm fighting shy of doing recordings myself at the moment. My spoken Chinese is not really good enough that I'd make a decent version. This poem is not particularly well-known, so I can't find a video of it online, but when I do better-known poems I'll make sure to link to videos each time so you can get a feel for the sound.